mgriffin

mgriffin 1 month ago

Pat, I am not afraid of anything other than seeing the BSA take the road that has failed in other nations, and what has been proven to not be in the best interests of boys developmentally.

I will repeat what I posted earlier and leave it to others to decide:

I believe that, as we should with anything, we need to do the research on something rather that react to what “we think”. If adding girls will enhance our program, so be it. But if all it will do is temporarily add a few members...

Nearly every, non-biased, study into single-sex education has shown that education and behavior is improved (especially among boys) in single-sex classrooms. For the most part, we have co-ed schools in the US because of convenience, funding issues, and politics - not pure education. Making the change to a single-sex schools would be the logical conclusion if we were only concerned about educating our youth, but that is not practical in our society.

If the things that we are trying to teach in the BSA are best taught in an all-boy environment, and research tells us that boys of Cub Scout and Boy Scout age prefer to be with other boys, why should we change? Unless of course those things do not matter any more.

I believe that there are a lot of other things we need to change to fix our program.

I have had the opportunity to study and review the impact of allowing girls in the Cub Scout and Boy Scout programs in nations that had cultures similar to ours (Europe and Canada primarily.) While I agree that there are other issues, Scouting has suffered when it has gone co-ed in other nations.

In the UK there were 656,004 members of the Scout Association in 1990. They included girls in 1991, and by 1997 they were down to 469,000 youth. In 2007, the last report I have, they are down to 365,685. (Only 44,764 of these are female). Girl Guides in the UK report a current membership of 510,000 girls.

In Scouts Canada, the membership in 1990 was 265,313. They added girls in 1992. Today their youth membership is 97,395. Girl Guides of Canada report 116,206 members.

So, since 1990 the UK has dropped 44%, Canada has dropped 63%, and we have lost 33%. But our loss includes moving nearly one million of our Explorers and in-school Scouting programs to LFL in 1991. And they just added girls.

mgriffin 1 month ago

See my notes above. Going co-ed has nearly wiped out programs in other parts of the world, and is contrary to most current "best scenario" child development theory.

mgriffin 1 month ago

See my notes above. Going co-ed has nearly wiped out programs in other parts of the world, and is contrary to most current "best scenario" child development theory.

mgriffin 2 months ago

I am convinced that a big part of our loss in membership in the BSA is not programmatic, it is because of the loss of unit serving executives. In June of 2000 we had 2,427, as of this June we have 2,115.

Since so many professionals do not, or can not, let volunteers take a major role in membership, as we lose professionals we lose membership - because now nobody is doing it! Remaining professionals have more to cover, so things go undone. When experienced professionals leave there is not a team in place that can keep recruiting going.

Bill Graff, the assistant Scout executive in Tampa in the 80s and early 90s and one of the best “volunteer-using” professionals I have ever known, was an advocate of coordinated recruiting nights. He wanted us to have every school in the council open on the same night. That made it impossible for us to do the recruiting and forced us to use volunteers. He taught me the value of selecting the right volunteers, preparing them to do a job, and letting them do it. I have no doubt that that was his intent.

As a result I discovered that good volunteers were more effective than I was at recruiting because they knew the school (or church), and the school knew them. As times changed and it started to get tougher for me to get into a school, it was more often than not easier for “Billy’s mom” who might be a school volunteer, tutor, or PTA member. When flyers were distributed, the boys (and teachers) paid more attention to “Billy’s mom” who they knew from the community and school activities. The volunteers were also more familiar with the unit’s program and plans. It was also always better when the potential Scout and his family walked in to the join night room and saw a familiar face.

For me, using volunteers gave me more time to do other things I needed to do to be successful, and more time at home with my family. I was able to spread myself among a growing number of units, schools and volunteers with no additional meetings. As I supported and prepared volunteers I was able to build trust and connections that have lasted for many years, and many councils.

I was forced to let go, and I found out that it worked. Because membership was so important to me and my evaluations, I worked hard to get the best volunteers I could, and to do all I could to be sure they did not let “me” down. But even more importantly, I also learned that this mutual success meant that more youth and families would get the benefits of a better Scouting program.

If this is going to change, we need to have it come from the top - and it needs to continue unfiltered through the regions and the Scout executives to district professionals and volunteers. It needs to be stressed through the PDL series and all other professional training. And we need have patience. Too often in our profession the “quick fix” is rewarded and the long term solution is punished.

Across the nation, of all the things we do as districts and councils, compared to other not-for-profits we are probably best at fundraising. The BSA raises a lot of money. There are many reasons for this, but one of the top ones is that we follow a plan and we recruit some of the best volunteers in our communities to help us. They agree to help because we have a specific plan, with a short time frame, goals and check points. With recognition and an element of fun.

I have often thought that if we did more things with an FOS campaign mentality we might be more successful. As time becomes more of a challenge - real or perceived - for Americans, conducting short-term projects like membership recruiting in this manner will become more important if we are to attract the best volunteers in the community - and more Scouts.

There is another potential benefit. Many times in my career I have seen a "busy" FOS volunteer go on to serve in a district leadership position. Once they have a taste of success and see the value of Scouting in terms of their time, they quite often become a "full-time" volunteer.

mgriffin 8 months ago

Alan, I think that the long-term retention of the information has more to do with the ages of Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts than the words and concepts. Boys that age are more likely to remember activity and hands-on things.

Retention has everything to do with trained leaders and quality den meetings that boys enjoy and parents think are worthwhile, not oaths and promises. Those are a bonus that help boys know they are part of something greater. But they still need to be age-appropriate.

I beleive that one of the real problems in Cub Scouting is that there is too little real - or perceived - difference from Tiger Cubs to Webelos, and boys lose interest unless they are in a great den. And, we have added too many things to a den leader's plate for the average mom to handle.

But that is for another subject...

mgriffin 8 months ago

Or, unit serving executives can meet with, and support their volunteers by providing them data and tools they need.

Maybe some want to get to the point where we need fewer professionals, and maybe that day will come. But the part I like best about our profession is the personal contact with top community volunteers and the joy I feel when they are successful because of my support.

mgriffin 8 months ago

I believe that, as we should with anything, we need to do the research on something rather that react to what “we think”. If adding girls will enhance our program, so be it. But if all it will do is temporarily add a few members...

If you are not aware, Rickwill was the director of Cub Scouting, he knows the reasons why we do what we do.

I was associate director of Cub Scouting in the 90's (before Rick was there) and I had the opportunity to do extensive research, and was able to work with experts in education and child development. I also reviewed the impact of allowing girls in the Cub Scout and Boy Scout programs in nations that had cultures similar to ours (Europe and Canada primarily).

Nearly every, non-biased, study into single-sex education has shown that education and behavior is improved (especially among boys) in single-sex classrooms. For the most part, we have co-ed schools in the US because of convenience, funding issues, and politics - not pure education. So yes, making the change to single-sex schools would be the logical conclusion if we were only concerned about educating our youth, but that is not practical in our society. On the other hand, if the things that we are trying to teach in the BSA are best taught in an all-boy environment, and boys of Cub Scout and Boy Scout age prefer to be with other boys, why should we change? Unless of course those things do not matter any more. I believe that there are a lot of other things we need to change to fix our program.

While I agree that there are other issues, Scouting has suffered when it has gone co-ed in other nations. In the UK there were 656,004 members of the Scout Association in 1990. They included girls in 1991, and by 1997 they were down to 469,000 youth. In 2007, the last report, they are down to 365,685. (Only 44,764 of these are female). Girl Guides in the UK report a membership of 510,000 girls.

In Scouts Canada, the membership in 1990 was 265,313. They added girls in 1992. Today their membership is 97,395. Girl Guides of Canada report 116,206 members.

So much for a potential mass-exodus from the GSUSA or a significant growth in our membership.

So since 1990 the UK has dropped 44%, Canada has dropped 63%, and we have lost 33% (and that includes moving nearly one million of our Explorers and in-school Scouting programs to LFL in 1991.) And they added girls.

When we looked at the issue in the 90's we found that boys of that age wanted to be with boys, and the parents of most girls of that age did not want them to go camping with boys.

I hope we will do what really is best for our youth, not what we just think is best.

mgriffin 8 months ago

I believe that, as we should with anything, we need to do the research on something rather that react to what “we think”. If adding girls will enhance our program, so be it. But if all it will do is temporarily add a few members...

If you are not aware, Rickwill was the director of Cub Scouting, he knows the reasons why we do what we do.

I was associate director of Cub Scouting in the 90's (before Rick was there) and I had the opportunity to do extensive research, and was able to work with experts in education and child development. I also reviewed the impact of allowing girls in the Cub Scout and Boy Scout programs in nations that had cultures similar to ours (Europe and Canada primarily).

Nearly every, non-biased, study into single-sex education has shown that education and behavior is improved (especially among boys) in single-sex classrooms. For the most part, we have co-ed schools in the US because of convenience, funding issues, and politics - not pure education. So yes, making the change to single-sex schools would be the logical conclusion if we were only concerned about educating our youth, but that is not practical in our society. On the other hand, if the things that we are trying to teach in the BSA are best taught in an all-boy environment, and boys of Cub Scout and Boy Scout age prefer to be with other boys, why should we change? Unless of course those things do not matter any more. I believe that there are a lot of other things we need to change to fix our program.

While I agree that there are other issues, Scouting has suffered when it has gone co-ed in other nations. In the UK there were 656,004 members of the Scout Association in 1990. They included girls in 1991, and by 1997 they were down to 469,000 youth. In 2007, the last report, they are down to 365,685. (Only 44,764 of these are female). Girl Guides in the UK report a membership of 510,000 girls.

In Scouts Canada, the membership in 1990 was 265,313. They added girls in 1992. Today their membership is 97,395. Girl Guides of Canada report 116,206 members.

So much for a potential mass-exodus from the GSUSA or a significant growth in our membership.

So since 1990 the UK has dropped 44%, Canada has dropped 63%, and we have lost 33% (and that includes moving nearly one million of our Explorers and in-school Scouting programs to LFL in 1991.) And they added girls.

When we looked at the issue in the 90's we found that boys of that age wanted to be with boys, and the parents of most girls of that age did not want them to go camping with boys.

I hope we will do what really is best for our youth, not what we just think is best.

mgriffin 9 months ago

While being a neighbor of Seattle I have appreciated "Words to Live By" for several years, and think the Scout Law is, next to the 10 Commandments, possibly the most important behavior list in the world, I am concerned that whenever we make the phases of the program too much alike we decrease desire to move to the next level. By itself this would not do that, but it is one more step towards that end, and there are many other things on this site that would be leading us towards that reality. We have done that too much already, and pushed young people too far and too fast, and retention is suffering because of it.

Youth of this age are looking for new and different adventures, especially at this age. So are parents.

I am also concerend that the real concepts in the Scout Law are too advanced for 6 and 7 year olds in that list form. They might memorize them and be able to recite them, but will they really understand them?

The Cub Scout Law and the Cub Scout Promise (for those of you that do not remember them):

The Cub Scout follows Akela.
The Cub Scout helps the pack go.
The pack helps the Cub Scout grow.
The Cub Scout gives goodwill.

I, (say your name), promise
to DO MY BEST
To do my DUTY to GOD
And my Country
To HELP other people, and
To OBEY the LAW of the Pack

They are designed for a young mind and is simple to understand. And they include most of the Scout Law, but in a format for younger minds. Being able to repeat something is not the point. Being able to understand and live by it is.

mgriffin 9 months ago

Ok, here is more (I just picked the APA reference because of the Warcraft idea, and it was an easy one).

Like anything else, responsibility, supervision, and moderation are the key. But too many of us use video as a babysitter and, or, believe there are benefits aside from fun and inproved dexterity and reaction times.

Plus, there is a significant and growing body of research that connects video gaming (any kind) to obesity, ADD, ADHD, and childhood depression. Phrases like "Primary experience is being replaced by a distorted, secondary experience"; "shorter attention spans"; "lack of creativity"; "weak relationship skills", etc. worry me.

We need to do the things that really make a positive, developmentat, difference in the life of a child. We need to build on what we do that research is again proving really, really works. And we need to work at making it really happen in packs, troops, teams, crews, and posts.

I would encourage everyone to read Last Child in the Woods (Richard Louv) and to visit the Children and Nature network web site and review the data. They are not the only a source of good information, but they gets you thinking about the possibilities we have in Scouting to make a real difference. And why we already do.

mgriffin 9 months ago

A good agenda is absolutely the key, regardless of the sequence or location. I like every year because it is a chance to learn, "recharge my batteries," and visit with friends from around the country. But when the agenda is poor....

The 2010 Top Hands was cancelled because the Centennial year is already so full and Top Hands would have been so close to the jamboree.

mgriffin 9 months ago

For what it is worth:

American Psychological Association:

"Teens who play violent video games for extended periods of time:

Tend to be more aggressive

Are more prone to confrontation with their teachers

May engage in fights with their peers

See a decline in school achievements. (Gentile et al, 2004).

The interactive quality of video games differs from passively viewing television or movies because it allows players to become active participants in the game's script. Players benefit from engaging in acts of violence and are then able to move to the game's next level.

Dr. Anderson and colleagues have shown that playing a lot of violent video games is related to having more aggressive thoughts, feelings, and behaviors (Anderson & Bushman, 2001). Furthermore, playing violent games is also related to children being less willing to be caring and helpful towards their peers. Importantly, research has shown that these effects happen just as much for non-aggressive children as they do for children who already have aggressive tendencies (Anderson et al., under review; Gentile et al., 2004)."

and

The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and the University Hospital Zurich

"Every hour children play video games or watch television may double their risk of obesity, a new study suggests. It's not the first study to link childhood obesity with time spent in front of the television or playing video games, but researchers say this study offers new insight into the scope of the problem.

"To our knowledge this study provides the strongest evidence for an independent association between time spent playing electronic games and childhood obesity," says Nicolas Stettler, MD, pediatric nutrition specialist at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, in a news release. "Our findings suggest that the use of electronic games should be limited to prevent childhood obesity.""

mgriffin 10 months ago

I'd rather be "defined" by "Scouts in the News" and "Michael's Great Adventure" than the numbers.

I think that MyBSA is a good place for the numbers. Scouting.org should be for what is behind the "numbers" and for reminding us and others that the "numbers" are people.

mgriffin 10 months ago

Ditto! I use it for congratulatory notes and reminders that I want the entire council staff to see every time they enter MyBSA. Like any tool, you have to use it to make it work.

mgriffin 10 months ago

The Board of Review and the Merit Badge process have - at least when run properly - been a very practical application of the skills of the job interview. As the maturity of the Scout grows and he nears Eagle, the closer it gets to an interview.

Perhaps we could work within the program and through training our volunteers to enhance the Board of Review experience, as well as make it a stronger part of Communications Merit Badge.

Scouting has a lot of things that are "life skills" that are not obvious, but like life in general are practical so boys learn them without being "taught and lectured to." We need to remember that and we need to take these skills and the process serioulsy if Scouting is going to continue to have the impact on young people that it has had for 100 years. Unfortunately, like too many other things in Scouting and society in general, we choose to cut corners and there is less long-term impact.

mgriffin 11 months ago

If you hover your mouse pointer over the number, a box will appear with the Votes for and against.

mgriffin 11 months ago

I contend that if all of our Cub Scout leaders were trained, and required to follow the progam exactly (as is the case in the pilots) retention would improve in "regular" Cub Scouting too.

From an American Academy of Pediatrics study in 2007 titled “The Importance of Play in Promoting Healthy Child Development and Maintaining Strong Parent-Child Bonds”: “many after-school programs prioritize an extension of academics and homework completion over organized play, free play, and physical activity for some children, this hurried lifestyle is a source of stress and anxiety and may even contribute to depression. Increased pressure to achieve is likely to manifest in school avoidance and somatic symptoms.”

Advancement is not the answer, it is just part of the puzzle that makes Cub Scouting effective. I am concerned that, like schools and society in general, we are falling deeper into the trap of forced achievement and structure, and we are in danger of adding to the problem. Plus, just as we are more formally entering this arena, many others, including schools are “getting it” and leaving. I am told by the director of our local Boys and Girls Club that they have taken the nature/creative play movement seriously and have been told to focus more on fun and creative play in their programs as opposed to "forced advancement."

I beleive have to keep in mind as the program changes - or evolves - what it really is that makes Scouting effective in the lives of boys and families. Both in light of history and the available current research.

Most parents initially join Cub Scouting because it teaches their son new life skills in a fun environment (not school-like), and/or perhaps because Dad or a brother was a Cub Scout when he was a boy, so it provides a shared experience. I do not recall that I have ever heard a boy join Cub Scouts so that he could get his Wolf badge. They join for fun, friends, and to go outside.

When run properly Cub Scouting has been successful because it brings families together through "forced" interaction to learn and teach those skills at home, and they discover that it is fun and worthwhile so most of them get more involved and stick around. Cub Scout den meetings have over the years stressed fun, play, and creativity among a group of buddies and the fun and learning has continued at home.

mgriffin 11 months ago

I think we need to be careful here. If we do make changes, and we do need to amke some, we need to do it right - in the true best interests of the development of a boy and not just what “seems” okay or what parents "want". We also need to do things that will not have a negative impact on the future of our older boy programs.

Or, we can give up on trying to be a program that really prepares young men and women for success as an adult, and just be a fun, membership program.

I believe that the over-structuring of Tiger Cubs is a result of reacting to what we “think” is right, or what parents like, as opposed to what research tells us is really best for boys. And I am convinced that has had a negative impact on 5th grade Webelos. Five years of Cub Scouting without significant variety is too much for that age child and they move on to other things. What do we do with six? If we lower the Boy Scout age what impact will that have on retaining older Scouts? Are we ready for 11 year old Eagle Scouts and an earlier departure from Boy Scouting? Will we become a 5-12 year old program? Maybe that is okay.

However, broad wide-ranging recent research is telling us that we are pushing kids into formal, structured educational activities too early. It is telling us that this is a major factor in why we do less well in international tests, why we have increased childhood depression and attention disorders.

In Finland, where formal schooling does not start until the age of 7, scores at or near the very top of achievement tests.

Research has also shown that boys, whose brains mature much more slowly than girls’, suffer the most from the early start to schooling and structure. They are not prepared for the structure. (This is also a factor why it may be okay for Girl Scout programs to start earlier, but not necessarily okay for us.)

In 2007 the American Academy of Pediatrics said: “This trend may have implications for the social and emotional development of children and adolescents. In addition, many after-school child care programs prioritize an extension of academics and homework completion over organized play, free play, and physical activity for some children, this hurried lifestyle is a source of stress and anxiety and may even contribute to depression.”

Again, if we are really concerned about making a real, long-term positive impact on a boy, let’s be careful and make sure.

mgriffin 11 months ago

Supply profits go into the general operating budget of the National Council. Supply funding retirement is a myth.

The retirement trust is made up of our personal contributions, a percentage of employee salaries (of those that participate) that a council (local and national for national employees)contributes, and investment returns.

mgriffin 11 months ago

If we have to, that would be the way to go (kbryan's kindergarten suggestion) as long as we stick with that idea. Tiger Cubs was originally set up that way and we quickly turned it into just another year of Cub Scouting. If (when) we allow 5 year olds to join we need to avoid the temptation to push them too far too fast.

mgriffin 0 years ago

I get to work with a lot of other agency executives, one of the things they admire about us is the career path. One of the many things that I - and they - really like about the BSA is that the "bosses" at every level have served a district and understand (at least when they really try to) the challenges that field staff face.

If we are serious about "putting the right person in the right job" as Bob has said, and we get away from the pure numeric or tenure standards some of us cannot let go of to place a professional, we can find the candidates.

We also have to prepare selection committees about the value of professionals that might not be in the usual position, and we have to prepare our staff members that show promise for the next role.

I also fear that if this ever happened, too many selection committees would choose the "local guy" and movement to the SE level would stop for those of us who have chosen to serve youth through this career. We will lose even more of our best people as a result.

I am also concerned - here and in many of these posts - about the "other agencies are doing it" comparisons. With the exception of national marketing, nobody does things as well as we do. We can be better, but why do we have to try things that have made others less successful? Instead, let's be more innovative and move ahead to serve youth, families, volunteers, the community - and our employees.

mgriffin 1 year ago

The plan already calls for the den to work with a troop(or troops) thoughout the 5th grade year and graduate in the January-March time frame.

It works! One advantage is keeping the den together and giving the younger Cub Scouts something to look ahead to when they see the things that the 5th graders are doing at pack meetings, etc. I have also seen that boys from the den often split up into different troops after graduation since many packs are school-related and many troops are church-related. As hard as I tried to get my last den to join one troop, if their home church had a troop they went there.

Sixth grade is a better starting point for Boy Scouts because boys are in junior high in most parts of the country.

mgriffin 1 year ago

This is already the case. The plan calls for 5th grade Webelos dens to transition to a troop in February or March of the 5th grade year. Early enough to prepare to go to summer camp with the troop after a couple of campouts. (It has been this way since the late 80's or early 90's.)

mgriffin 1 year ago

I think we need to be careful here too. If we do make changes, we need to do it right - in the true best interests of youth development.

It is important to understand that boys' brains and bodies mature much more slowly than girls'. Further, because research indicates that boys' brains are hard-wired to learn in different ways, attempts to teach in a single way too often means that boys switch off from learning at an early age and never reengage.

The challenge of teaching (and learning) the things that we teach to both boys and girls of Cub Scout age is not as simple as just adding girls to a den.

We have been successful - not just in the lives of the current members, but also as they grow into adults - because over the generations we have met the needs of youth that provide for long-term success.

By the way, take a look at the membership in countries that have gone co-ed in the younger-age programs - and at Camp Fire. I believe that you will find that their numbers dropped significantly when girls, or boys in the case of Camp Fire, were included.

mgriffin 1 year ago

I think we need to be careful here too. If we do make changes, we need to do it right - in the true best interests of youth development.

It is important to understand that boys' brains and bodies mature much more slowly than girls'. Further, because research indicates that boys’ brains are hard-wired to learn in different ways, attempts to teach in a single way too often means that boys switch off from learning at an early age and never reengage.

The challenge of teaching (and learning) the things that we teach to both boys and girls of Cub Scout age is not as simple as just adding girls to a den.

We have been successful - not just in the lives of the current members, but also as they grow into adults - because over the generations we have met the needs of youth that provide for long-term success.

By the way, take a look at the membership in countries that have gone co-ed in the younger-age programs - and at Camp Fire. I believe that you will find that their numbers dropped significantly when girls, or boys in the case of Camp Fire, were included.

mgriffin 1 year ago

I think we need to be careful here. If we do make changes, we need to do it right - in the true best interests of the development of a boy and not just what “seems” okay. We also need to do things that will not have a negative impact on the future of our older boy programs.

I believe that the over-structuring of Tiger Cubs is a result of reacting to what we “think” is right, or what parents like, as opposed to what research tells us is really best for boys. And I am convinced that has had a negative impact on 5th grade Webelos. Five years of Cub Scouting without significant variety is too much for that age child and they move on to other things. What do we do with six? If we lower the Boy Scout age what impact will that have on retaining older Scouts? Are we ready for 11 year old Eagle Scouts and an early departure from Boy Scouting?

Research is telling us that we are pushing kids into formal, structured educational activities too early. It is telling us that this is a major factor in why we do less well in international tests. For example Finland, where formal schooling does not start until the age of 7, scores at or near the very top of these tests. This research has also shown that boys, whose brains mature much more slowly than girls’, suffer the most from the early start to schooling and structure. They are not prepared for the structure. (This is also a factor why it may be okay for Girl Scout programs to start earlier, but not necessarily okay for us.)

In 2007 the American Academy of Pediatrics said: “This trend may have implications for the social and emotional development of children and adolescents. In addition, many after-school child care programs prioritize an extension of academics and homework completion over organized play, free play, and physical activity for some children, this hurried lifestyle is a source of stress and anxiety and may even contribute to depression.”

Again, if we are really concerned about making a real, long-term positive impact on a boy, let’s be careful.

mgriffin 1 year ago

Great stuff! It is very important that we take the lead in this movement. We have been the most effective at teaching and using the concepts over the years. The success in life of our alumni proves it. But like many things we do, we do not get the credit.

Frank Reigelman (Outdoor Program Team Leader at National) has this on his "radar" for a while and he is offering a conference on the subject at Philmont next summer. Washington D.C. SE Al Lambert has testified before Congress. I have met with legislative leaders in Washington State and spoken to community groups. The word is getting out.

Connecting with nature and creative play are a big part of what we do. Parents are seeing and hearing about the research and looking for activities for their children. We need to make sure that they look at us for those activities, and when they do, we need to be sure that we are doing the correct things in our programs.

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