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Girl Cubs
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OK...I know this idea is nothing new, and I'm sure that the hard core traditionalists are going to shutter, but I think it is time to seriously consider a Girl Cub Scout program.

I have so many parents who tell me their daughter is in Girls Scouts and their son is in Cub Scouts and their daughters want nothing more than to quit GS and join the CS, because it is so much cooler. I think we do a disservice to the girls out there by not providing them the same quality program that we provide the boys.

Secondly, I think that we do very well in marketing ourselves as a family program. If we could provide programs for nearly all young people, then we'd be better servicing families as a whole. In today's busy society, it is difficult for parents to take their daughters to GS and sons to CS. It would be so much easier if there was a one stop shop.

There is not much that families do together anymore. Scouting could be the activity that really brings a family together. Plus, most families bring the sister along anyway, especially if the parent is the den leader. And...when it comes to family camp, the sisters come along anyway. Why not simply make a program for them to follow, too.

Also, parents that are leaders in both GS and CS have to go through twice the training (not to mention that the GS training and rules are a lot tougher to follow). If they had one program to lead, they would only have to follow one set of rules and go to one set of training.

I don't mean this to be a slap in the face to the GSA, but I know a lot of parents, primarily mothers, who would love this.

Now...I know that part of the Cub Scout program is working on age specific material in an environment that is only boys. I completely respect that, so here is my idea. It is only a broad brush, but I think it could work...

We have separate dens for the boys and girls. So, three of four weeks per month the kids are meeting w/ others of their gender, except for the opening and closing. We develop a mirror program for girls that follows most of the same requirements, but we change the animal and any requirements that are gender specific. (We maybe add a few to the girl requirements, as the parents that I have spoken to say that the girls would fly through the boys requirements too quickly).

Once a month, they have the den meeting to celebrate and show off their skills, they do this as one big group.

At camp, the kids participate in groups w/ their own gender for round-robin activities and come together for dinners, campfires, etc.

So...again, I don't have all the answers, but I think it is worth some consideration.

PS: My 7-month old daughter will one day thank you.
Idea # 39Cub Scouting, 
Moderator Comments
7/29/09

From: Janice Downey, Innovation Coordinator

Thank you for your comments. You have some valid points. We appreciate your suggestion and may consider it at the appropriate time.
Comments
flaughli 1 year ago
I do not think this is a good idea. This is why we have Girl Scouts.
Joshua Glacken 1 year ago
I would agree, however, from what I hear, the GSA is failing girls across America. We have sisters who beg their parents to join CS's because it is sooo much more fun.

Plus, wouldn't it be nice for parent's and leaders to only have to take their kids to one program? Also, moms that double dip in BSA & GSA would only have to learn one program. We would stop tiring out our leaders so quickly if they only had one program to focus on.
brwest 1 year ago
Globally, when a country's Scouting program has become Co-Ed across the board, membership grew dramatically in the first 2-3 years. Following that membership began and continues to decline consistently.

I believe that we are offering something that is more appealing to girls and young women than other programs offer. Creating a program that is whole family oriented (in that it also recognized the daughter's achievements) definitely sounds like an idea that would bring more people in.

Directly paralleling a girl's program with the existing Cub program would be a mistake. I believe that simply changing names and adding requirements would not be enough either. Developmental needs for elementary boys and girls have a very large gap between cognitive, social and physical skills. A girls program needs to appear very different. Parents will notice if their daughter is required to just do more for the same level recognition. The requirements for each level will have to be tailored to the needs of that particular age and gender.

Outdoor activities would be a special challenge to create events that meet the needs of both boys and girls as well. We may be able to recruit girl Cubs with fire, guns and knives; but the way that girls will react and play with the outdoors is markedly different from how a boy plays. Consider the all-mighty stick. A Wolf cub sees a sword or gun. A girl of the same age would likely see… we’ll I can’t speak from experience on this but she wouldn’t see a sword or gun in all likelihood.

Parents may benefit and it is likely that a whole family would join if Cubs became Co-Ed. Having separate dens and different ranks would begin to address the differences in boys and girls but we will need to use and conduct research on childhood development and gender issues to ensure that we can create a program that will do right by everyone.
Joshua Glacken 1 year ago
Now, we're having a conversation! What does anyone else think? Having a separate program is fine w/ me...I was looking at simplicity. However, I think we do need to think about how we can provide Scouting to the whole family. How else could this be accomplished?
One of our biggest challenge is reaching out to non-white youth and families, and single-sex Scouting is a big obstacle, particularly with Latino families. The stop-gap measure of having after-school LFL groups doesn't work well, because the Girls still miss out on the unifroms and badges, and it conveys a subtle second-class membership. And trying to say that BSA does Scouting differently than the rest of the world doesn't wash at all with immigrant and first-generation families.

In the past 98 years, the differences between girls' interests and boys' interests have diminished quite considerably. Many girls, including my own two daughters, wanted to join the BSA long before they reached age 14.

With no disrespect intended, GSUSA is now more focused on programming that appeals to "modern girls" (see studio 2B program), and is not very similar to the BSA methodology. It is also structurally dissimilar to the BSA approach of chartered partner organizations, and so has less appeal to our BSA chartered partners. GSUSA is structured more like the YMCA, Boys and Girls Club, etc. with "company-owned" stores, where BSA does well with the "franchise" concept.

We should give chartered organizations the option of having co-ed packs. The program for those units could be structured with a preference for single-gender dens (since that fits with the playgroup dynamics of those age-groups), but a mixed den could be permitted for den leaders willing to do it. And there should be absolutely no penalty for chartered organizations that want to maintain boy-only packs, because that would probably still be the vast majority.

I myself don't see the need for sex-segregated badges or uniforms, but if that is needed to ward off complaints from GSUSA, then let's do it. If this requires the use of terminology separation (not using anything resembling GSUSA terms and distinctive programs), then let's make the adjustment and push forward. It is time that we give our customers what they want.
jeburke 1 year ago
I think a girls' program would be a great idea, with the genders growing and developing in "like groups" at this stage of development. Girls and boys need to be held seperately. Can the American Heritage Girls become one of Scouting's programs? Sort of a "Girl Cub Scouts." The GSUSA have failed to show success and/or character-based leadership with young women, but the BSA could bring some great benefits to those families!
ljarman 1 year ago
I also have two daughters who want to join Cubs beacuse the activities are more akin to what they have been exposed to.

Young girls do have a different approach to the outdoors and to thier environment. Heck, while my son delights in squishing a few bugs, my daughters strive to protect every creature they encounter.

We, the BSA, have a proven record for youth. I am sure that the discussion to alow young women into Venture Crews and Explorer Posts some thirty years back had the same types of comments.

Having my kids in one Scouting unit and program would deter the conflicts not just with meeting times but also with the ethical lessons they would learn from that sort of unit, rather than my wife and I having to re-instruct my daughters to be better young women rather than what is being taught in thier GSUSA troop.

Again, we have the proven record for reaching youth, why not take another step to include those young girls and women who could also benefit from the Oath and Law? Why not as one commentor stated in a related topicinclude " . . . the American Heritage Girls (as)one of Scouting's programs . . ."?(jeburke)
pat.friedrich 1 year ago
I disagree about young girls having a different take on the ourdoors. My own daughter grew up camping, hiking, backpacking, etc. and has the same take on the outdoors as her older brother. Scouting would benefit greatly by allowing girls in the program.
mgriffin 1 year ago
I think we need to be careful here too. If we do make changes, we need to do it right - in the true best interests of youth development.

It is important to understand that boys' brains and bodies mature much more slowly than girls'. Further, because research indicates that boys' brains are hard-wired to learn in different ways, attempts to teach in a single way too often means that boys switch off from learning at an early age and never reengage.

The challenge of teaching (and learning) the things that we teach to both boys and girls of Cub Scout age is not as simple as just adding girls to a den.

We have been successful - not just in the lives of the current members, but also as they grow into adults - because over the generations we have met the needs of youth that provide for long-term success.

By the way, take a look at the membership in countries that have gone co-ed in the younger-age programs - and at Camp Fire. I believe that you will find that their numbers dropped significantly when girls, or boys in the case of Camp Fire, were included.
labbott 1 year ago
Yes, we should move carefully but there is a great unmet need for such a program. There should be a way of creating a parallel program without disrupting what we have. Separate units for girls and boys should be maintained .
bmyers 1 year ago
I think that a program that includes girls would be a great addition to the Scouting program. Other countries already include girls in their program so why is the United States lagging behind?

In our area, the local Girl Scout council closed their office a few years ago and, according to the feedback that we hear in our office, the council that "acquired" the Girl Scout units doesn't provide much of a program.
pcowan 0 years ago
Ummm, has anyone thought for a moment if the GSUSA were to go after our boys into a co-ed program what that would do to OUR membership? The GSUSA already does not hold to a Declaration of Religious Principal or uphold the BSA Oath or Law (no gays) so I can see our membership drastically reduced if we tried all out competition for their girls. The liberals would be all over them to try to squash us simply by taking our target market; boys.
Joshua Glacken 0 years ago
I would agree with you, but from what I hear, the GSUSA is tanking. The GS leaders that I talk to don't think their program even compares to ours. The whole reason I bring this up is because I don't think that the GSUSA is providing a program that is desirable to and meets the needs of our youth and I think we need to fill the void Plus, it is a lot easier to convince girls to join Boy Scouts, but I think you'd have a VERY difficult time getting any boy to join the "Girl" Scouts.

I don't think they would have the power to put something like that together.

Joe Connole 8 months ago
I agree. I think it is about time that the Boy Scouts of America present an alternative to the Girl Scout program. I have had a number of parents come into the museum to get their sons introduced to Boy Scouting and they say they would never consider letting their daughters join Girl Scouts. The Boy Scouts of America would benefit greatly from creating a Girl Cub Scout program that feeds directly into Venturing, and/or Explorers.
mgriffin 8 months ago
I believe that, as we should with anything, we need to do the research on something rather that react to what “we think”. If adding girls will enhance our program, so be it. But if all it will do is temporarily add a few members...

If you are not aware, Rickwill was the director of Cub Scouting, he knows the reasons why we do what we do.

I was associate director of Cub Scouting in the 90's (before Rick was there) and I had the opportunity to do extensive research, and was able to work with experts in education and child development. I also reviewed the impact of allowing girls in the Cub Scout and Boy Scout programs in nations that had cultures similar to ours (Europe and Canada primarily).

Nearly every, non-biased, study into single-sex education has shown that education and behavior is improved (especially among boys) in single-sex classrooms. For the most part, we have co-ed schools in the US because of convenience, funding issues, and politics - not pure education. So yes, making the change to single-sex schools would be the logical conclusion if we were only concerned about educating our youth, but that is not practical in our society. On the other hand, if the things that we are trying to teach in the BSA are best taught in an all-boy environment, and boys of Cub Scout and Boy Scout age prefer to be with other boys, why should we change? Unless of course those things do not matter any more. I believe that there are a lot of other things we need to change to fix our program.

While I agree that there are other issues, Scouting has suffered when it has gone co-ed in other nations. In the UK there were 656,004 members of the Scout Association in 1990. They included girls in 1991, and by 1997 they were down to 469,000 youth. In 2007, the last report, they are down to 365,685. (Only 44,764 of these are female). Girl Guides in the UK report a membership of 510,000 girls.

In Scouts Canada, the membership in 1990 was 265,313. They added girls in 1992. Today their membership is 97,395. Girl Guides of Canada report 116,206 members.

So much for a potential mass-exodus from the GSUSA or a significant growth in our membership.

So since 1990 the UK has dropped 44%, Canada has dropped 63%, and we have lost 33% (and that includes moving nearly one million of our Explorers and in-school Scouting programs to LFL in 1991.) And they added girls.

When we looked at the issue in the 90's we found that boys of that age wanted to be with boys, and the parents of most girls of that age did not want them to go camping with boys.

I hope we will do what really is best for our youth, not what we just think is best.
Joe Connole 8 months ago
I am certainly not in favor of adding girls into the currently existing Cub Scout program. What I do think could work is creating a separate program specifically designed for girls aged 6-11 years old that will help them develop the skills necessary to lead a productive life.

Futhermore, while the girls who join Explorers and Venturing are certainly suited for those programs it could help boost the numbers of the those programs by already introducing girls to the Boy Scout way. Perhaps this could be modelled after the original Girl Guides program that our Girl Scouts have ventured so far away from. Like Cub Scouting, an all girl program could be used to prepare a girl for entering one of our senior scouting programs.

From this program girls could graduate into a three year program designed to teach the girls out door survival, first aide, cooking, and all the other skills necessary to succeed in Venturing and Explorers, (they could spend time learning about career opportunities, and be able to have individuals from Explorer posts come in to explain the program.)

I'm not proposing that we make it so that girls go on to earn their Arrow of Light, or Eagle Scout. But there is great benefit for our older scout programs if girls are given the same opportunity to come in on an equal playing field with their male counterparts. We've never had any program to test whether or not we could raise the numbers of our Venturing and Exploring programs by introducing girls at a younger age to the Boy Scouts of America.
Judy Sizemore 8 months ago
Status Changed from Active to Complete.
Judy Sizemore 5 months ago
Status Changed from Complete to In Progress.
John Whitford 2 months ago
This would require a reworking of both the Cub Scout and the Boy Scout programs. It makes sense to 'join the world' in this way as most other Scouting Associations are co-ed. Still, it will mean a lot of work and will be a challenge to resolve all the underlying concerns. Proper supervision, consideration of all differences in building advancement programs and running activities, concerns over relationships with other organizations, especially the GSA.

Certainly worth looking at seriously. We have been co-ed in our teens program for 40 years, why not at the lower ages. Kids are much different today than they were 30 years ago. Perhaps it is time...
mgriffin 2 months ago
See my notes above. Going co-ed has nearly wiped out programs in other parts of the world, and is contrary to most current "best scenario" child development theory.
Joshua Glacken 2 months ago
I agree w/ John...definately worth looking into. I think it will be better for the organization in the long-run. I'm willing to help put time and effort into this...and I think the organization should to stand the test of time.

I'm not necessarily advocating that every aspect of the program become co-ed...more so that we provide a supplimental program, similar to what we have for cubs to girls. Girl dens would definately meet separately. Go-see-its and den outings should be separate. Pack meeting and all-pack field trips could be co-ed.

I really think we have the infrastructure to make this work easily.
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